Curse

inscribed · Sep 29, 2006, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

Stupid? why? less cost means more initial energy means more output....this way you can cast other spells for longer without having to use EP.

I don't think I've ever seen Ensign make a false statement on these forums, especially when it comes to elementalists. I usually make a point of trying to catch his posts, just because I usually pick up a thing or two from them. I've definitely changed my perspective of playing elementalists from reading his stuff.

Just saying, if you're going to call him out, make sure you double check your reasoning before doing so.

LightningHell · Sep 29, 2006, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Putting in an Energy management skill just to make your Elite Energy management skill is stupid, meaning there are better choices.

FrogDevourer · Sep 29, 2006, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

Well Ele atune works well alone, works much better with another atunement.

The big difference is that GoLE is about 10% as efficient as Ether Prism, whereas a fire attunement is 60% as efficient as elemental attunement (at least for a mono-fire build). Both attunements are more powerful when used together because they stack and allow you to spam mono-element spells quite well. On the contrary GoLE is a flat 10e every 30s. It doesn't stack with EP and it doesn't improve the efficiency of EP.

The word stupid is probably harsh but the idea is that you're wasting a precious skill slot for a "not so exciting" non-elite energy management (1 pip) when you should ride on your 10 pip elite (provided that you like focus swapping).

Ensign · Sep 29, 2006, 11:34 AM // 11:34

It's 4 AM, I can't sleep, and I'm punchy. This is what happens when you give an insomniac a laptop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

Stupid? why?

Because immediately after putting a ridiculously good piece of emanagement on your bar, you looked to a patently terrible piece of energy management because for some reason the 25 in the cost of the thing scared you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

less cost means more initial energy means more output....

Wrong. Ether Prism is going to give you the exact same returns no matter what. Pip Glyph is going to give you 10 per cast, period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

as you can see y is a function of f, being twice the initial energy minus 25 cost from EP.

That's not the useful form of the relationship. The equation I care about is the *max profit per cast*. That equation is:

<profit> = 2/3 * <max energy> - 25.

You don't get any funky multiplicitive effects from changing the cost on Prism. If you reduce it by 10, you simply save 10 energy.

For those of you at home, the value of <profit> at 12 ES, used with perfect timing, is 47.

With natural regen firing this thing off optimally, you will have 9.25 seconds to use up a bit more than 61 energy.

You are going to have to try really, really bloody hard to spend energy that fast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

At 0 energy, you will need to wait 12 sec to recharge to 28 to boost to 80.

What does that have to do with anything? 0 energy? What are you doing getting close to that? You fire this thing off every time your energy gets down to around 60/108, because it is going to be recharged, and never even smell energy that low.

The way you actually play this thing, is with a -5 energy weapon and a shield as your main set. You swap and fire this thing off when you're around 10-12 current energy, which brings you back up to full. You should only be smelling 0/61 energy if you're getting Prism interrupted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

it also makes energy denial have a less inpact on you.

See, you think you're clever here. Here's my question - how much does an Elementalist who is refilling his energy to full every 12 seconds, running around on 16 pips of effective regen, care about edenial?

Quick answer for you cheaters - he doesn't care. At all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

Im just saying that with GoLE, you can be a little more liberal about your energy usage.

I cannot fathom what you think you are getting out of that 17th pip of energy that the first 16 could not provide for you.

You would rather waste a second skill slot and a couple of seconds of your time to allow you to cast that last Fireball a couple of seconds earlier, is that what I'm hearing?

But you know what the real problem with this is? If for whatever reason you absolutely did need to spend that 10 energy right then and there.

Who cares?

You get 16 pips from Prism. Spending that 10 costs you 20 later. That drops your net regen down to 15.5 pips.

Who cares?

When I was playing with the skill, I didn't even try very hard to maximize it - I'd be lax on letting it sit there recharged, or I'd fire it off high or low by a pretty healthy margin. I probably only netted 8 pips out of the thing, for 12 pips total.

Who cares?

Ether Prism, if you have the patience to focus swap for it and the attributes to support it, gives you way more energy than you could even think of ever spending. The reason you will not use this skill is because you cannot afford to pump Energy Storage to 12, or because this getting interrupted is death.

Peace,
-CxE

Cebe · Sep 29, 2006, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Second Wind: Elite Spell, worst E-management ever

Haa haa - yes! I have only ever used it once. After having the elite for a few months and having never looked at it once I decided to try a "concept build" whereby I took Second Wind, Gale and Chain Lightening (amongst Others) into the Ring of Fire mission.

Oh dear. That's all you can say.

Good thing this skill is under "non attribute" because if it was under "energy storage" it would be more of a joke than it already is!

dgb · Sep 30, 2006, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Haa haa - yes! I have only ever used it once. After having the elite for a few months and having never looked at it once I decided to try a "concept build" whereby I took Second Wind, Gale and Chain Lightening (amongst Others) into the Ring of Fire mission.

Oh dear. That's all you can say.

Good thing this skill is under "non attribute" because if it was under "energy storage" it would be more of a joke than it already is!

It can provide a level of energy comparable to Ether Prodigy, simply with different drawbacks and sees a reasonable amount of high end play. Don't laugh at it too much, you can get 4 pips out of the thing.

Hyprodimus Prime · Sep 30, 2006, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It's 4 AM, I can't sleep, and I'm punchy. This is what happens when you give an insomniac a laptop.

Because immediately after putting a ridiculously good piece of emanagement on your bar, you looked to a patently terrible piece of energy management because for some reason the 25 in the cost of the thing scared you.

Wrong. Ether Prism is going to give you the exact same returns no matter what. Pip Glyph is going to give you 10 per cast, period.

That's not the useful form of the relationship. The equation I care about is the *max profit per cast*. That equation is:

<profit> = 2/3 * <max energy> - 25.

You don't get any funky multiplicitive effects from changing the cost on Prism. If you reduce it by 10, you simply save 10 energy.

For those of you at home, the value of <profit> at 12 ES, used with perfect timing, is 47.

With natural regen firing this thing off optimally, you will have 9.25 seconds to use up a bit more than 61 energy.

You are going to have to try really, really bloody hard to spend energy that fast.

What does that have to do with anything? 0 energy? What are you doing getting close to that? You fire this thing off every time your energy gets down to around 60/108, because it is going to be recharged, and never even smell energy that low.

The way you actually play this thing, is with a -5 energy weapon and a shield as your main set. You swap and fire this thing off when you're around 10-12 current energy, which brings you back up to full. You should only be smelling 0/61 energy if you're getting Prism interrupted.

See, you think you're clever here. Here's my question - how much does an Elementalist who is refilling his energy to full every 12 seconds, running around on 16 pips of effective regen, care about edenial?

Quick answer for you cheaters - he doesn't care. At all.

I cannot fathom what you think you are getting out of that 17th pip of energy that the first 16 could not provide for you.

You would rather waste a second skill slot and a couple of seconds of your time to allow you to cast that last Fireball a couple of seconds earlier, is that what I'm hearing?

But you know what the real problem with this is? If for whatever reason you absolutely did need to spend that 10 energy right then and there.

Who cares?

You get 16 pips from Prism. Spending that 10 costs you 20 later. That drops your net regen down to 15.5 pips.

Who cares?

When I was playing with the skill, I didn't even try very hard to maximize it - I'd be lax on letting it sit there recharged, or I'd fire it off high or low by a pretty healthy margin. I probably only netted 8 pips out of the thing, for 12 pips total.

Who cares?

Ether Prism, if you have the patience to focus swap for it and the attributes to support it, gives you way more energy than you could even think of ever spending. The reason you will not use this skill is because you cannot afford to pump Energy Storage to 12, or because this getting interrupted is death.

Peace,
-CxE

To Ensign, unlike you, I didnt play with the skill directly, im only relying on what it says, I have no hands on experience. If you claim that its great even without GoLE, thats fine, i really cant argue with experience. But in math I can.

You said that EP gives the same no matter your energy level? thats plain wrong, it doubles your initial which means if you start at 26 energy, you loose 25, leaving you with 1 which doubles into 2. as opposed to having 60 energy, minus 25=35, 35x2=70, net gain 1 vs net gain 10.

taking off 10 energy to cast EP means you get +20 energy, not just 10.
At 2(60-25)=70
compared to 2(60-5-10)=90.

or 2(40-25)=30
vs 2(40-5-10)=50

the difference is 20 energy.

if you use EP at 60 energy of 108, you gain a net of 10...
2(60-25)=70
you just went from 60 to 70. One spell costs 10. And you also said 108 energy which means max energy storage and a 15/-1 wep, which means only 1 energy a sec, thats 30 energy to spend in 20 sec, an ele can spend that in 2-6 seconds.

You know what, you play the way you want to because youve used it before and everyones saying you're so pro. If it works for you then great, more power to eles. If it doesnt then I win, but I also lose because less power to eles.

and I too hate second wind and exhaustion for that matter. What do you guys think? I think Anet should put out a few more exhaustion management skills. There is only GoE now which leaves little room for creativity. Maybe a non elite "Gyph of Compromise" cast time 1, recharge 15, cost 5: your next spell does not cause exhaustion but costs 15 more energy to cast

And something like GoR non elite, but instead Glyph of Compensasion: cost 5, cast 1, recharge 15: your next skill recharges instantly, but costs 15 more energy to cast.

BIG EDIT: Oh shoot the recharge time is 10....I thought it was 20....10 makes a big difference. I guess GoLE doesnt matter that much anymore. but if you want to save 20 energy every 30 sec add it in!

, No you are right. at 10 recharge you can keep your energy really high easily. Sorry for the trouble.

Ensign · Sep 30, 2006, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

You said that EP gives the same no matter your energy level?

I never said that. In fact I spelled out the relationship explicitly - <profit> = 2/3 * <max energy> - 25.

<profit> is directly proportional to <max energy>. I don't know where you got the idea that I thought otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

And you also said 108 energy which means max energy storage and a 15/-1 wep, which means only 1 energy a sec, thats 30 energy to spend in 20 sec, an ele can spend that in 2-6 seconds.

Two +15/-1 items, 12 Energy Storage, base energy. 30 + 36 (ES) + 12 (Focus base) + 30 (mods) = 108. You go down to two pips for a bit under 3 seconds, which costs you about 2 energy. Otherwise you're regenning at a full four pips.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

and I too hate second wind and exhaustion for that matter. What do you guys think?

Exhaustion is awesome. It lets you consume all of that empty max energy capacity later in a fight and turn it into useful effects. They need to explore that mechanic more, it's outstanding for Elementalists.

I'm not a very big fan of Second Wind. It's ok, but it's extremely fragile. You really have to micromanage your exhaustion and energy to get full benefit out of it, and one interrupt really ruins your day. I also dislike how slow it is in general - the timing on casting it isn't all that flexible, and doing so keeps you from responding to anything for what feels like a really long time.

If you want to use Second Wind and not blow up messily, you need to kinda slow roll it. Instead of trying to always hit the maxline, you want to come up a bit short every time. That way if the thing gets interrupted, you're not immediately plunged into exhaustion hell.

The skill is ok, if you can't use Prodigy for whatever reason (usually, Tranquility) then Second Wind is an OK substitute. I wouldn't recommend it though, since it's a lot less flexible and less powerful than Ether Prodigy on the whole.

Peace,
-CxE

Hyprodimus Prime · Oct 01, 2006, 01:19 AM // 01:19

"Ether Prism is going to give you the exact same returns no matter what. "

You did say that, but it doesnt really matter anymore. I was wrong, you dont need GoLE because EP only has 10 sec recharge which means....thats its an awesome energy management skill! I think this could be used for Ele bonding. Its safer than Ether Prodigy as it can be removed, no exhaustion and no health loss.

And I made a pvp to test out your little formula, adn it was right, again i was wrong. So sorry for any trouble. I didnt add in the original weapon's energy that you had to take off of the max, then the new one is added. When I did my calcs, I just added the new ones. I very much respect you and hopr you forgive my ignorance.

Im also wondering about why exhaustion is powerful (in a good way).

Peace,
-HyP

Master Fuhon · Oct 01, 2006, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

Im also wondering about why exhaustion is powerful (in a good way).

It's powerful in that it has potential to be powerful, but it wasn't being executed properly. Second Wind and Ether Prodigy are the only skills that squeeze every last ounce of efficiency out of the Energy Storage attribute. Like people say all the time, "I would gladly trade that enormous buffer of an energy bar for an extra pip of regen". And thats what you do with these skills; too bad they are all elite, and too bad exhaustion is a fixed amount.

Trading large amounts of energy to gain massive amounts of energy is a stupid game mechanic to work with (when you've already invented the concept of exhaustion). Play Warrior for a while and get used to the idea of having two energy bars (energy and adrenaline). Then, take a skill like Shock/Gale and start making use of a third bar. That's why you don't burn out.

Hyprodimus Prime · Oct 01, 2006, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Oh i see. So its like instead of Obisidian Flame costsing eg. 15 energy because its so powerful, it only costs 5 and you take off energy from your max that isnt being caught up to by your energy amount anyways. I guess its a good finisher.

Phades · Oct 01, 2006, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

Oh i see. So its like instead of Obisidian Flame costsing eg. 15 energy because its so powerful, it only costs 5 and you take off energy from your max that isnt being caught up to by your energy amount anyways. I guess its a good finisher.

More like instead of costing 35e.

Master Fuhon · Oct 01, 2006, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

More like instead of costing 35e.

Yea, that's more like it. I'd compare it to Lightning Hammer 25 energy, 15 second recharge, and an instant hit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

Oh i see. So its like instead of Obisidian Flame costsing eg. 15 energy because its so powerful, it only costs 5 and you take off energy from your max that isnt being caught up to by your energy amount anyways. I guess its a good finisher.

10 exhaustion spent is a far steeper price to pay than 10 energy when you consider spell spamming and the slower rate of exhaustion regen. It's a great skill, but when you use it, it automatically forces your elite. That means obsidian flame is on a 3 second cast time, and a recharge of 15 seconds again. But at least it's 5 energy again, and you can still come up with ways of spending the energy and exhaustion again.

Obsidian Flame (elite skill) - 5 energy cost, 3 second cast time, 15 second recharge, 22-118 armor ignoring damage. This skill takes up two places on your bar.

That's close to what it looks like to me (although not exactly how it is), when you consider that the times you would take the exhaustion hit are similar to the times when the recharge of your wand/stave would hit. But using earth skills and putting in all those attribute points... bleh.

Ensign · Oct 01, 2006, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

You did say that, but it doesnt really matter anymore.

Read the context of that quote. I've seen several people on these forums talking about how GLE + Ether Prism is some killer combo, when it is *completely irrelevant* what skill you Glyph. There isn't some magical synergy between GLE and Prism, as opposed to the great synergy between the Attunements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

Im also wondering about why exhaustion is powerful (in a good way).

Once your energy is depleted, what does that empty capacity do for you? Nothing. Until you get to take a break or fire off some emanagement, refilling your bar, that capacity doesn't do anything for you. Hence, exhaustion really doesn't matter until you've picked up enough of it that it starts to cut into your *current* energy. Until then, the difference between exhausted energy capacity and empty energy capacity is irrelevant.

There are a few skills that are very cheap, but compensate for their low price by causing exhaustion. Those let you effectively 'cheat' on costs, by spending empty energy instead of current energy. That's the value of exhaustion skills, it lets you spend empty energy. Now, a lot of exhaustion skills suck - they have all the problems normal skills have, plus they have exhuastion tacked on. But when you look at the Mind skills, or Gale, or Obsidian Flame - those are all really cheap and spammable, they just cost you exhaustion instead of energy. So once you have some empty capacity, you can start working your exhaustion down in parallel. As long as it never cuts into your current energy, you haven't really lost anything.

Personally, if my bar never has any exhaustion on it that's regenerating, I feel like I'm not doing enough. That's a valuable resource that I should be exploiting after all. =)

Peace,
-CxE

I Brother Bloood I · Oct 01, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

If ur me... And no that energy mangement shouldnt be to much of a problem with the average 70-80 nrg then you would know that its pointless to bring elite e management unless ur being stupid and spamming high energy spells. You wanna know something about ether prodigy? it removes all enchantments! no surprise to some of you... but what if instead of losing ur enchantments u get to keep your attunement and use something around the lines of mind blast. If u didnt notice thats like nrg management with dmg.

Lets get back to ether prism though. This is definatley not a good skill compared to ether prodigy. Its to conditional especially since you usually need e management when your LOW on nrg... Focus swapping doesnt really solve the problem either. Maybe if u had -nrg focus and +nrg focus ud be able to get a good use of it. U still have to factor in the -25 nrg u use or the -10 if u use glyph lesser nrg.

Why isnt second wind a good nrg management? U first spam it until your 25-50% exhaustion(maintain this exhaustion). Then you should be smart and use non exhaustion spells and its a very good e management when coupled with your attunement.

Im not gonna bring up ele attune. But im going to bring up my favorite ele nrg management... GLYPH OF ENERGY!!!11 omg this is the best for eles. They can have high nrg exhaustion spells and use them with no regrets...

when it comes down to it ether prism isnt worth it... neither is any of the enchantment e management.(except for mantra of recall) Glyph of Energy is a glyph which helps against some interupts form mesmers. Second Wind can give u much more energy than ether prodigy. lets just leave it at that...

around · Oct 01, 2006, 04:50 PM // 16:50

The problem is, energy storage needs a complete overhaul, because it's like having additional energy armour. The only class which really NEEDS additional energy armour is assassins, and with decent Crit strikes even they should be fine.

Additional energy is useless though. All it gives you is a few extra spells at the start of a fight. After that, energy management becomes much more useful. Hence, if they turned energy management into something along the lines that you gained extra energy regen for every rank in ES, then Eles as a class would be much more useful.

Symbol · Oct 01, 2006, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

If ur me... And no that energy mangement shouldnt be to much of a problem with the average 70-80 nrg then you would know that its pointless to bring elite e management unless ur being stupid and spamming high energy spells.

Apparently you don't have a clue. Estorage is not energy management, for the umpteenth time.

Ensign · Oct 01, 2006, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I

its pointless to bring elite e management unless ur being stupid...but what if instead of losing ur enchantments u get to keep your attunement and use something around the lines of mind blast.

If you didn't notice, Mind Blast is an elite energy management spell. A fairly good one, at that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I

Lets get back to ether prism though. This is definatley not a good skill compared to ether prodigy. Its to conditional especially since you usually need e management when your LOW on nrg...

If you're not retarded and have learned to fire off your energy management skills as soon as you can, you will never even get to be low on energy.

If you have Energy Drain on your bar, you don't wait until you have 5 energy left to cast it. You cast it as soon as you have ~15 empty energy, to refill completely.

The amount of energy you need to have in your capacity to fire off an emanagement skill only affects its fragility. I don't care if I want to maintain high energy (Mind Blast) or low energy (Ether Prodigy) for the most part - I just care about reaching a stable level of energy flow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I

GLYPH OF ENERGY!!!11 omg this is the best for eles. They can have high nrg exhaustion spells and use them with no regrets...

I would regret having high energy exhaustion spells on my bar, personally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I

Second Wind can give u much more energy than ether prodigy. lets just leave it at that...

Actually, no, it can't. Second Wind gives about 2/3 of the energy of Ether Prodigy when you're stabilizing with it, and doesn't have a nice ramp-up period like Prodigy does when building exhaustion. You can slowroll it a little bit, running it at maybe 3/4 efficiency to have the ability to fire it off twice in a pinch...but that's as explosive as it gets.

I don't dislike the skill, but it's a lot weaker than Prodigy - and a TON weaker than Ether Prism, if you have the Energy Storage to cover it.

Peace,
-CxE

Hyprodimus Prime · Oct 01, 2006, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Apparently you don't have a clue. E-storage is not energy management, for the umpteenth time.

Thats right. Although the skills in "Energy Storage" have some good Energy Management properties. And with a new light on exhaustion, more energy=more exhaustion room so you can cast powerful EXhaustion spells. I got tot try an exhaustion build.

Symbol · Oct 01, 2006, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Can anyone come up with a build that actually uses all the energy that ether prism gives you? The only one I can think of is an E/Me mass degen spreader, cast conjure nightmare and images of remorse/CP on recharge for max degen on 3 people simultaneously (with mantra of persistence of course).